Questioning Conservatives

Intellectual discussion of conservative policy, particularly for the renewal or replacement of the Republican Party.


    When is abortion justified?

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    Chris "Jesdisciple"
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    When is abortion justified?

    Post  Chris "Jesdisciple" on Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:11 am

    According to the Republican platform, abortions should only be allowed in cases of rape and physical danger to the mother. Some believe that this position neglects to empathize with the mother, who probably didn't mean to become pregnant. Why is a hard-and-fast law better than preventative measures which focus on the reasons for abortion?


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    Mick

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    Abortion

    Post  Mick on Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:24 am

    Abortion is never justified. Just like murder , stealing, adultery, lying and the list goes on . Of course we can rationalize, sympathizes, even understand and agree with circumstances when almost all wrongs could be what we would consider the right thing to do. But limiting life to survive only on the cognitive ability of individual people to support or individual circumstance dictates it .

    Abortion restrictions is a civil society's best attempt to protect and respect life . Life is not nor should it ever be something we rationalize among ourselves to destroy or allow to live. Life is not ours to give.

    Life is a Gift from God . The republican platform is just political parties best attempt to limit the killing of unborn children that will accepted and supported by a hopeful majority , or what hopes to be a hopeful majority. The issue goes beyond abortion , which has become a a right above all others in this culture . A paid right even in all 50 states. Children in public schools need a note to take an aspirin from home , but an abortion is specially protected secret from all family. It has become a celebrated perversion of our culture.
    The best possible way to promote life I believe is to support people in need, support those who are with child and need help, and support those after the child is born who need help . I do vote for pro life candidates, but do not see it as loosing "political" issue .

    However I also believe it is the right stand to take, not only for life, but it also would promote more accountability in all our lives . Sexual contact would be considered more important , I believe strong pro life laws would also discourage people from having irresponsible sex and fewer partnerships.

    Chris "Jesdisciple"
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    Re: When is abortion justified?

    Post  Chris "Jesdisciple" on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:58 am

    Woohoo! Glad to see someone answering me.

    Mick wrote:Abortion is never justified. Just like murder , stealing, adultery, lying and the list goes on . Of course we can rationalize, sympathizes, even understand and agree with circumstances when almost all wrongs could be what we would consider the right thing to do. But limiting life to survive only on the cognitive ability of individual people to support or individual circumstance dictates it .
    So even if the mother will die in birth, the baby must be born? I've not verified this, but I read some time back that the baby will also likely die in this situation. If you have no problems with this exception, how much injury to the mother is necessary to justify abortion? (And your comparison to lying reminds me of Rahab's justified lie.)

    Mick wrote:The best possible way to promote life I believe is to support people in need, support those who are with child and need help, and support those after the child is born who need help .
    See this thread's sibling regarding the definition of "pro-life." This isn't intended sternly; I'm glad you thought of it.

    Mick wrote:I do vote for pro life candidates, but do not see it as loosing "political" issue .
    I didn't understand that last part... What's a loosing/losing political issue?

    Mick wrote:However I also believe it is the right stand to take, not only for life, but it also would promote more accountability in all our lives . Sexual contact would be considered more important , I believe strong pro life laws would also discourage people from having irresponsible sex and fewer partnerships.
    I'm not sure it would help in this department... For one thing, "safe sex" will preserve much of the misbehavior, and I don't think teens really ponder the consequences much anyway.


    _________________
    I expect well-reasoned answers to my questions, and you should call me out on poor logic. I also expect questions from you. I will answer my own questions after you; this isn't merely a blog.

    My words are often misunderstood, so maybe my glossary will help. See here to make your own.

    Mick

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    Re: When is abortion justified?

    Post  Mick on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:25 pm

    "So even if the mother will die in birth, the baby must be born? I've not verified this, but I read some time back that the baby will also likely die in this situation. If you have no problems with this exception, how much injury to the mother is necessary to justify abortion? (And your comparison to lying reminds me of Rahab's justified lie.)"

    Appears you believe to be able to "justify" killing on your terms. I did not not say the baby must be born . I said I could never justify it . Nor can you or can a society . I would say in my ignorance only God could answer that question . I know of a woman who was pro life who had just the situation in her life. She chose to have her baby at a risk to her own life . She lived , the baby still died. I myself would have a problem of my conscience telling anyone to do the same thing. But I would never a person it was justified . So I will ask you , when in the term of a pregnancy should abortion be outlawed . One second before birth , two seconds ? When and why did you choose any time ? My belief of protection life from conception is based on science and my understanding of life . If I am wrong , I choose to be wrong on the side of life.

    "I'm not sure it would help in this department... For one thing, "safe sex" will preserve much of the misbehavior, and I don't think teens really ponder the consequences much anyway."

    Really believe safe sex is working ? We have the most informed intelligent generation of young people regarding sexual information since the beginning of time .
    We also have the highest numbers of diseases and close to the highest number of teen age pregnancies . The highest numbers of diseases caused by sex . You also realize sexual diseases are caused regardless of 'safe sex" Even now when we have vaccines for some of the diseases that safe sex does not protect . I found it alarming that the diseases that safe sex did not protect say with the recent vaccine was not discussed in comprehensive sex classes . Why not ? One Sex education told me there was a concern if safe sex was not all it was cracked up to be , that with multiple partners still causes higher risks , that some youth and adults may just ignore some safe sex practices. The education of sexual relationships apparently has it built in biases and ideological conclusions built into the curriculum.

    . Secular reasoning of safe sex has a hard time understanding the two distinct apparent contradictions of high rates of infection and knowledge. The blame is still given to religion by many. . As for youth not pondering the consequences I would agree , many adults do not either . I suggest much is left to our culture norms and expectations of behavior . Our culture has changed and sees casual sex as an abortion for convenience , this is supported by laws and those in academia and even some liberal churches. Sex left Just something up to the INDIVIDUAL to decide as moral or immoral . When spoken to seriously and what it is doing to our hearts and relationships , culture, ... well the example above of abortion saving the life of the Mother is used . An example of a situation that is hardly ever seen is an example for justification . If a machine saved the life of a person , should the government supply machine guns to all kids and adults . If an abortion saved a life of woman , all abortions should be allowed for all. Its a question I Jesus was given many times to be tricked by the Pharisees, and had to answer many times when he was questioned by the Pharisees.

    Instead of the consequences of every day abortions and the acceptance of them by the culture . The right above all rights. No culture will rise above violence and depravity that kills its young out of convenience .



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    Chris "Jesdisciple"
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    Re: When is abortion justified?

    Post  Chris "Jesdisciple" on Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:29 pm

    The universal practice of abortion cannot be justified, but individual cases can be. The threat to the mother's life is obviously justification for killing the child IMO, as you observed regarding your own conscience. This justification doesn't apply to cases where the mother's life is not threatened.

    And no, I cannot justify it in the sense that it's right because I say so. But I can justify it in the sense of observing universal ethics.

    Mick wrote:So I will ask you , when in the term of a pregnancy should abortion be outlawed . One second before birth , two seconds ? When and why did you choose any time ?
    Conception immediately results in life. Morning-after pills are just early abortion, and should be outlawed along with abortion. The cases I ask about are just exceptions, not general justifications.

    I don't know whether safe sex is working, but it gives people a sense of security regardless.

    (I was going to play devil's advocate, but I don't think I can on this issue.)


    _________________
    I expect well-reasoned answers to my questions, and you should call me out on poor logic. I also expect questions from you. I will answer my own questions after you; this isn't merely a blog.

    My words are often misunderstood, so maybe my glossary will help. See here to make your own.

    Mick

    Posts : 10
    Join date : 2009-11-17
    Age : 62
    Location : Washington State

    Universal Ethics ?

    Post  Mick on Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:15 pm

    "And no, I cannot justify it in the sense that it's right because I say so. But I can justify it in the sense of observing universal ethics."

    Universal ethics ? Huh ? So your saying your right because the world says so. Did no tour universal ethics Put Christ to the Cross ? Not only physically but our universal ethics caused the need of Christ . How can you use it to justify anything .

    Not that your opinion supports the need for Christ, just I can not answer and justify killing a baby , born or unborn for any reason . I will stand on that position, now it does not mean your wrong , it means my conscience can justify killing or choosing who to kill. Justify mercy killing ? I understand it , but justify is a word with alot of baggage.
    I understand the principle , the logic, but the Universal thics ?
    Universal ethics. support Truman dropping the A Bomb. According to your request you expect thought out reasoning I would expect a reasoned answer to why truman dropping the A Bomb was prudent , not because of Universal acceptance by his cabinet as the reasoning . The same for the above question of killing a n unborn baby.
    Defending positions with UNIVERSAL Ethics sound a little hokey to me . Whats your ethics based on . The life of the Mother is more important then the life of the unborn baby. That is a reasoned answer, don't be afraid to defend it or say it . Universal ethics ? Is that Mother now also allowed to abort her baby at the exact same time because she decided after a couple of months she found out the baby is a boy and she wanted a girl. According to your universal ethics is that Ok ? Or can you give a reasoned answer for that ? So are we to support laws that limit rights to life based on popular ethics of the time , or are we defend life based on belief that all life has equal value under God . You chose universal ethics . Limited the conversation IMO.

    Chris "Jesdisciple"
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    Re: When is abortion justified?

    Post  Chris "Jesdisciple" on Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:27 pm

    Universal ethics are the rules which should be applied consistently in all cases. Opinions on the precise definition will vary, but these opinions must seek the absolute set (i.e. God's). (I did have a muddy definition here, but I edited this one in after refining it.)

    I'm afraid you're one of the many people who read my prose and come away with something radically different from what I intended.

    EDIT: Also, when I say an act is justified I mean we should allow it. This doesn't necessarily mean it's not sinful, but for our purposes we have no good reason to prohibit it. "Understand" seems broader than this, i.e. being sinful I might be able to understand why my friend would steal a video game but he would still need to be caught and punished.


    _________________
    I expect well-reasoned answers to my questions, and you should call me out on poor logic. I also expect questions from you. I will answer my own questions after you; this isn't merely a blog.

    My words are often misunderstood, so maybe my glossary will help. See here to make your own.

    Mick

    Posts : 10
    Join date : 2009-11-17
    Age : 62
    Location : Washington State

    Re: When is abortion justified?

    Post  Mick on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:21 am

    That is an excellent idea to keep a glosary like that . Because words do often give meanings that are different, even with like minded individuals.

    But taking your assumption you have universal ethics on your side , the logical conclussion, a Mother's life is more important then unborn child's life. The Biblical Rachel, died giving birth to Benjamin (Genesis 35:16-20) According to the belief you have God would have thought Rachel would be justified to abort Benjamin ? I don't understand how you can say that is a Bibical view with certainity ? I can defintely understand that view legislated in law dealing with the life of the Mother because of compromise or views such as yours, but not from the view of God on His Throne supporting your view. Or mine by the way , I don't Know for sure. I will have to agree to disagree.

    The man made assumption is the life of the Mother is in the now , and the unborn child's worth since out of sight becomes less. But does not God form us , and did he Not have a plan for Benjamin. Without him could not all of civilization have been changed for worse as we know it . It is impossible for us to say how much an unborn person will positively help the world . I choose to defend life and let God handle the details.

    Good debate , tweaked my brain . Thanks.

    Chris "Jesdisciple"
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    Re: When is abortion justified?

    Post  Chris "Jesdisciple" on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:39 am

    The only thing I have to add is that you might not have noticed my edit. There's a difference between legally/philosophically justified and spiritually justified - and that difference is that we can't judge the heart. If you got that, I agree that we must settle for disagreement. Smile

    To everyone else... What do you think?


    _________________
    I expect well-reasoned answers to my questions, and you should call me out on poor logic. I also expect questions from you. I will answer my own questions after you; this isn't merely a blog.

    My words are often misunderstood, so maybe my glossary will help. See here to make your own.

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